«ΞΕΧΑΣΤΕ ΑΥΤΗ ΤΗΝ ΕΥΡΩΠΑΪΚΗ ΕΝΩΣΗ» – συνέντευξη του Γιόσκα Φίσερ για την κρίση χρέους, την Ελλάδα, τη Γερμανία, την Ευρώπη


αποσπάσματα (από ZOOM NEWS και VIMA.gr)

(…) – Θα πρέπει και τα 17 σημερινά κράτη μέλη του ευρώ να παραμείνουν στην ευρωζώνη;

«Αν θα είναι όλα, αυτό δεν το ξέρω. Αλλά θα ήταν σοφό να κρατήσουμε τους Ελληνες στην ευρωζώνη. Γιατί ως πολιτικός για θέματα εξωτερικής πολιτικής επισημαίνω ότι: η Ελλάδα θα συνεχίσει να έχει σημασία για τα Βαλκάνια και την ανατολική Μεσόγειο».

Δίνετε πολιτικά επιχειρήματα. Ωστόσο σε πολιτικά επιχειρήματα βασίστηκε τότε και εκείνη η απόφαση, που τώρα όλοι την χαρακτηρίζουν ως λανθασμένη, δηλαδή την ένταξη της Ελλάδας στην ΕΕ και το ευρώ.

«Η νομισματική ένωση αποτελούσε ανέκαθεν πολιτικό εγχείρημα. Αφορά την ευρωπαϊκή ολοκλήρωση! Και τους Ιταλούς και τους Ισπανούς, θα έπρεπε και αυτούς να τους είχαμε αφήσει απέξω; Κι εκεί υπήρχαν κίνδυνοι».

Αλλά και άλλη οικονομική δύναμη. Σε κάθε περίπτωση διερωτόμαστε, αν μια μελλοντική οικονομική κυβέρνηση, σύμφωνα με το μοντέλο σας, θα είχε την πολιτική ισχύ να επιτύχει κάτι καλύτερο, τη στιγμή που ήδη και μόνον η Ελλάδα είναι ήδη ‘too big to fail’.

«Μα, βέβαια. Αν είχαμε ευρωομόλογα, η επαπειλούμενη χρεοκοπία μιας χώρας δεν θα αποτελούσε πλέον συστημικό κίνδυνο. Πάρτε για παράδειγμα τις ΗΠΑ: Αν χρεοκοπήσει η πολιτεία της Λουϊζιάνα, το γεγονός δεν θα είναι δραματικό για το δολλάριο, αλλά μόνο για τη Λουϊζιάνα».

Ηταν σωστό να ασκηθεί πίεση προς την Ελλάδα, προκειμένου να ματαιωθεί το σχεδιαζόμενο δημοψήφισμα; Δημιουργειται η εντύπωση ότι ο λαός θεωρείται απλώς ενοχλητικός.

«Με όλο το θάρρος, ίσως και εγώ να είχα χειριστεί τα πράγματα όπως η Μέρκελ και ο Σαρκοζύ στις Κάννες. Οχι μόνο, επειδή θα αισθανόμουν ότι μου είχαν κάνει άσχημη ζαβολιά. Σε μια τέτοια κατάσταση δεν μπορεί κανείς να παίζει παιχνιδάκια. Πρέπει να επιδιώκουμε πλήρη σαφήνεια».

Θα βρίσκεται η Ελλάδα μετά από τρία χρόνια ακόμα στην Ευρωζώνη;

«Πριν από την μεγαλοφυή ιδέα του Παπανδρέου θα έλεγα ναι. Σήμερα δεν γνωρίζω τι άλλα παράλογα θα συμβούν. Κατά τα λοιπά, προ πολλού το θέμα δεν είναι πλέον η Ελλάδα. Αν οι Ελληνες έβγαιναν από το ευρώ, θα σύντομα θα μπαίναμε στη μάχη για τη διάσωση της Ιταλίας και της Γαλλίας».

Πόσο μεγάλος είναι ο κίνδυνος που διατρέχει η Ιταλία;

«Σας λέω ότι υπάρχουν κάποιοι άνθρωποι πολύ ισχυροί οικονομικά που έχουν βάλει στοίχημα. Σχετικοί παράγοντες των αγορών, κυρίως κάτοχοι hedge funds, έχουν ποντάρει κυρίως στην κατάρρευση του ευρώ. Η Ελλάδα δεν ήταν γι αυτούς παρά μόνον η πρόγευση. Θα πρέπει να τους διαψεύσουμε και να σταθούμε μεταξύ μας με αλληλεγγύη».

Προβάλλεται επίσης το επιχείρημα ότι μία έξοδος από την ευρωζώνη θα ήταν πολύ καλύτερη για την Ελλάδα. Αλλά και για την ΕΕ.

«Αν οι Ελληνες φύγουν τώρα, θα είναι κάτι χειρότερο από χρεοκοπημένοι».

Χρεοκοπημένοι κατά κάποιον τρόπο είναι έτσι κι αλλιώς. Το ερώτημα είναι αυτό που επιχειρείται αυτή τη στιγμή ποιον πραγματικά βοηθά: τους Ελληνες ή τις τράπεζες;

«Συμμερίζομαι τις αμφιβολίες για τα πακέτα λιτότητας. Επισκέφτηκα την Ελλάδα , προκειμένου να σχηματίσω ο ίδιος εικόνα. Είναι τρομερό. Κυριαρχεί μια κατάσταση πλήρους απελπισίας, όπως μετά από έναν χαμένο πόλεμο. Δεν καταλαβαίνω γιατί η Ανγκελα Μέρκελ δεν επισκέφτηκε την Αθήνα όσο τα πράγματα βρίσκονταν σε προϊμώτερο στάδιο. Μπορεί κανείς να κάνει και τα δύο: και να επισημάνει τις αναγκαίες επώδυνες μεταρρυθμίσεις, αλλά και να δώσει ελπίδα. Οι Ελληνες δεν θα μπορέσουν να βγουν από την κρίση μόνο με λιτότητα. Δεν κατάλαβα ποτέ γιατί η Ευρώπη δεν κάνει αυτό που πραγματικά μπορεί, δηλαδή να συνδυάσει τα μέτρα εξυγίανσης με ένα πακέτο ανασυγκρότησης.(…)

Ταξιδεύετε πολύ σε όλο τον κόσμο. Υπάρχει φόβος για τους Γερμανούς, φόβος για γερμανική ηγεμονία;

«Ολοι παρακολουθούν πολύ προσεκτικά το πώς ο ‘bully’ της τάξης – έτσι μας βλέπουν οι άλλοι και κυρίως οι μικρότερoι – συμπεριφέρεται στους Ελληνες, οι οποίοι ήδη έχουν καταρρεύσει. Μην πιστεύετε ότι οι πηχυαίοι τίτλοι του ταμπλόιντ «Bild Ζeitung» περί τεμπέληδων Ελλήνων δεν λαμβάνονται σοβαρά υπόψη. Κι αυτό είναι φοβερό».

Ολόκληρη η συνέντευξη αγγλικα (Mετάφραση από τα γερμανικά Μ.Γ.)

Joschka Fischer: «Forget this EU»

Europe should be rebuilt, declares ex-Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer in an interview with DIE ZEIT. The leaders of the european member-states should take  decisions – with control by a real Parliament.

DIE ZEIT: Mr. Fischer, were you again twenty years old, would you be demonstrating along with the “Occupy movement” against the power of the banks?

Joschka Fischer: Once upon a time, to occupy would seem to me probably too moderate.

DIE ZEIT: But you understand the concerns of the protesters?

Fischer: Of course.

DIE ZEIT: Is then this a revolutionary moment?

Fischer: The Occupy movement is not revolutionary. «Revolutionary» were the bank executives who have led the global financial system into a global crisis. Unfortunately, we are in a situation in which even the State as a classical counterpart to the markets is not doing well. On the contrary.

DIE ZEIT: Are we currently experiencing a banking crisis or a state debt crisis?

Fischer: It began as a banking crisis, later it became state debt crisis, however, it is going deeper. The financial crisis affects all countries. But in Europe it has escalated, because we only have weak governance. A political union is missing. Now there are two possibilities: Either Europe falls apart. Or we take the step towards the political union. Not at some future date but within the next two to three years.

DIE ZEIT: What should future Europe look like, according to your vision?

Fischer: Let’s forget the EU of 27! Unfortunately. But I just do not see how these 27 states can agree together to any meaningful reform. Therefore we should have to form a vanguard. This vanguard would be defined through the common interest in preserving the Εuro.

DIE ZEIT: That is the core of Europe.

Fischer: It is the factual reality. We can see already how this future government will be formed: The leaders of the 17 euro countries would be in almost constant session. Even today they are the decision-makers in Europe.

DIE ZEIT: And whoever does not take part in this, is out?

Fischer: There are differences. Denmark for example is steadily bound with the crown to the euro, but does not wish to belong to the euro-zone, which is ratified by referendum. Even in England opinion is divided whether there should be a fiscal union or not. The dirty little secret in London is, that the future of London’s financial fate isf a lot more dependent from the Euro than from the pound.

DIE ZEIT: You want a Europe without Brussels.

Fischer: No, but we must now make a detour, if not, Europe will fail. I recommend the Shengen Agreement as a model. At that time, some European countries have reached an agreement to abandon all border controls. For the time being, there is the part of the European Treaties.

«Without courage, we will not get out of the crisis»

DIE ZEIT: And where in your model is room for democratic control?

Fischer: This will not happen without involvement of national parliaments, because in there lies the budget law, which is untouchable. Therefore, one should consider the forming of an advisory Euro-Chamber, to which top members from the fractions of the national parliaments as well as the Parliament would be sent. The leading persons of the Parliaments would thus have a double function, one national and one European- the same goes for the heads of Governments. Thus, those who have a real say in their parliaments at home they could have a say in Europe. In a final Treaty, this Euro-Chamber would be upgraded to a Parliament with real decision-making and veto competence. In such a model the losers would be the present Commission and the European Parliament, this should be clear. But we have seen that both these institutions have not been able to achieve legitimacy.

DIE ZEIT: You want to sacrifice the EU in order to save the euro.

Fischer:  On the contrary.  By saving the Euro, I will preserve the EU. To the vanguard corresponds also a rear-guard. The rest of the countries will follow suit. This is the experience that we have gained from Shengen.

DIE ZEIT : Your model calls for far-reaching sovereignty transfers. Are there not to be referendums, not even in Germany?

Fischer: There must be a referendum, yes. I’m not a fan of referendums, but in this case it is indispensable. Not only for constitutional, but most of all for political reasons.

DIE ZEIT : Do you see any chance in the next two to three years, your model to gain a majority?

Fischer: I see most of all that the crisis will not let us go. Without courage, we will not get out of it. It depends on Merkel and Sarkozy, on Merkozy. My impression is this: If things will become really serious in Europe, in spite of the continuous blabbing of all these stupid talking-heads, the citizens would vote for Europe with a majority of two thirds.

DIE ZEIT: You have always strongly criticized Merkel. Now you say it would depend on Merkel and Sarkozy …

Fischer: That’s all we got! It took agonizingly long, but my impression is this: one woke up! Or rather: the lady woke up. However, I still feel that the necessary determination is still missing. What we need now is a ten-point plan for Europe, similar to the plan we used at the time with Kohl to organize the German Unification. We need a Ten-Point-Plan for a Political Union.

DIE ZEIT : This plan means also a pooling of debt, whether by Euro-Bonds or by increasing the powers of the European Central Bank?

Fischer: It comes down to a Stability and Transfer Union. Whoever denies this, finds his lie in his pockets. Moreover, we are already heading fully to this direction .

«Monetary union was always a political project»

DIE ZEIT: Should all 17 euro- countries of today continue to be in the euro zone?

Fischer: Whether all of them should be in, that I do not know. But it would be wise  to keep the Greeks in. Because, as a politician related to the domain of foreign policy, I say this:  Greece’s importance in the Balkans and the Eastern Mediterranean will go on.

DIE ZEIT: You argue on political terms. However, at an earlier time, political arguments gave justification to that decision, which now everybody thinks it was a wrong one, namely integrating Greece to the EU and the Euro.

Fischer: The Monetary Union was always a political project. It had to do with the European integration! What about the Italians and the Spaniards, should we want to keep them out too? There were also risks.

DIE ZEIT: But another economic power. We wonder though, if a future economic government shaped to your model, would have enough political power, in order to create something better -if Greece is already too big to fail.

Fischer: Oh, yes. If we had Euro-Bonds, the impending bankruptcy of one country would not lead to a systemic risk any more. Take the U.S.:  If the state of Louisiana goes bankrupt, this is not a drama for the dollar, but only for Louisiana.

DIE ZEIT: Was it right to put pressure on Greece, so that the proposed referendum should be cancelled? It has created the impression that we come to think, that the people are merely a disturbing factor.

Fischer: To be frank, I probably would have acted like Merkel and Sarkozy in Cannes. Not only because I would have felt grossly cheated. In a situation like this one cannot play little games. On this we should set for full clarity.

DIE ZEIT: Will Greece be in the Euro-zone in three years from now?

Fischer: Before Papandreou’s stroke of genius I would have said yes. Today I do not know what other sort of irrationality might come forth. Anyway, it is no longer just about Greece. If the Greeks had gone out of the euro, we would soon fight the battle about Italy and France.

DIE ZEIT: How big is the danger that comes from Italy?

Fischer: I’m telling you, there are some financially powerful people who run bets. Relevant market players, especially some hedge funds holders are betting on the breaking-up of the Euro. Greece  was only the foreplay for them. We should stand together in solidarity and disappoint them.

DIE ZEIT : It is also argued that leaving the euro would be much better for the Greeks. As well as for the EU.

Fischer: If the Greeks go out now, they will be worse than broke.

DIE ZEIT: They are already bankrupt in a way. The question is, the measures that are taken, whom do they really help: the Greeks or the banks?

Fischer: Personally I share the doubts about the saving packages. I went to Greece in order to form a picture of my own. It is devastating. There is a prevailing state of hopelessness similar to a situation after a lost war. I do not understand why Angela Merkel has not visited Athens at a fairly early stage. One can do both: remind the painful but necessary reforms, but also give hope. The Greeks will not be able to come out of the crisis only by saving. I’ve never understood why the EU is not doing what they can really do, namely to combine the remedial measures to a reconstruction package.

«For me, the question of war and peace is not done»

DIE ZEIT: The mode of the whole European debate is blackmail: if you do not all agree, then comes the didaster…

Fischer: It is not the disaster that follows, it is the re-nationalization. If you want to be called Gauweiler or Sinn or Nonsense, then you can obviously want this.

DIE ZEIT: threats instead of arguments, with this authoritarian attitude …

Fischer: That’s not authoritarian, that is the reality!

DIE ZEIT: … you cannot handle more effectively the fears about more Europe. How can you achieve acceptance for more Europe among the Greeks, or among our co-citizens in this country? You should be seeking majorities on your referendum.

Fischer: I organize nothing whatsoever. I only set clearly the options: For me, the question of war and peace is not done. I am politically and biographically much too close to the nineties and the wars in the Balkans. I’m not saying that we are heading towards a new world war…

DIE ZEIT: You have a certain reputation as a seer…

Fischer: Yes, and unfortunately I have been not bad so far. I’ve just read the memoirs of Stefan Zweig. He describes how, through the first World War, an entire world was lost and gone, a world that seemed perfectly safe, the Habsburg monarchy. We must be very careful that we do not lose Europe. The risk is currently very big. Europe, as a continent, will go on, even without the euro, but as a political-cultural project it will then be dead

DIE ZEIT: How powerful is Germany at the moment?

Fischer: A lot mightier than we think, but it has been so for quite some time. However, at the same time it is very weak and dependent too. Our destiny is now in Europe.

DIE ZEIT: Has Germany grown proportionally to its size?

Fischer: When I was Foreign Minister, I came one day to my friend Madeleine Albright and started complaining, «It’s terrible. Whatever we are doing it is wrong. We commit ourselves, we are criticized… We are not involved, we are also criticized »  Then she burst into laughter and said,» Oh, Joschka, that’s the contradiction of leadership. America is experiencing this on a daily basis.» How right she was. We must learn to deal with these contradictions.

DIE ZEIT TIME: You go around the world a lot. Is there a fear of the Germans, a fear of a German hegemony?

Fischer: They all look at us very carefully, they think of us as the bully of the class, that’s how the others see us, especially the little ones, like the Greeks, who are already on the ground. Don’t you realize that the head titles of the BILD ZEITUNG about the lazy Greeks were believed?. This is bad.

DIE ZEIT : However in the matter of the intervention in Libya the bully proved himself very small.

Fischer: You don’t expect seriously, that I will still say something about this? We ‘ve got the worst government since 1949, but the country is strong enough to rectify this.

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